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Muslim minister-designate calls for state school crucifix ban

DDP/The Local · 24 Apr 2010, 10:44

Published: 24 Apr 2010 10:44 GMT+02:00

“Christian symbols do not belong in state schools. School should be a neutral place,” said Aygül Özkan, who is a member of the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and will be made Lower Saxony's social minister next week.

She also stressed her support for the ban on headscarves in such schools – as well as accepting that church schools would be an exception from a crucifix ban.

Özkan told Focus news magazine she had negotiated with Lower Saxony State Premier Christian Wulff, also from the CDU, to incorporate responsibility for integration into her new job, taking it from the interior ministry.

“I clearly said that I would like to take over the area of integration which was until now in the interior ministry,” she said.

The 38-year-old intends to shake things up in the state, and has also called for fellow Turkish-Germans to make more effort to integrate.

Last week she told Die Zeit newspaper she wanted to see migrants making more of an effort. “One has to approach people,” she said. “It’s important that one takes the first step especially when one is foreign or looks foreign. We isolate ourselves too much.”

She appealed to young immigrants in particular, saying, “I am not accusing anyone who does not know the German system, or themselves have not been to school. But I cannot accept it when young people do not take the chances that are offered to them. We must remember why our parents came to Germany – so that things are better for the children.”

Story continues below…

She has received several threats since being picked to become social minister by the CDU, prompting the state police to provide her with protection, including body guards.

A successful manager, Özkan joined the CDU in 2004 and quickly rose through the regional ranks of the party to reach the Hamburg city council in 2008.

DDP/The Local (news@thelocal.de)

Your comments about this article

10:53 April 24, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I agree that religious symbols have no place in public schools, but I'm sure that there are those who will seize on ízkan's remarks to ignite another Christian-Muslim hatefest.
11:24 April 24, 2010 by DoubleDTown
That's interesting, and I'm sure she's going to get some attention for a public stance on this issue. I'm not too clear on the German constitutional stance on this issue. Germany sure doesn't have a sharp separation of church and state, and given that public schools teach "Religion" (a/k/a Christianity), it seems awkward to require removal of a major religious symbol. I'm familiar with public schools that offer children the option of "Religion" (a/k/a Christianity) or alternatively "Ethics". As long as "Religion" is offered then having a crucifix present doesn't seem to conflict. The question then should really be whether a public school should teach "Religion" or limit itself to "Ethics". Perhaps that's the issue ízkan should be raising instead -- seems to me she's jumped the gun and moved right for the flashpoint issue.
13:47 April 24, 2010 by twisted
This young lady may not become a minster as hoped...her though on removing crucifixes will go over like a fart in a space helmet.....

I do however, completely agree with her.
14:00 April 24, 2010 by 123Joe
DoubleDtown, permit me to remind you of the fact that desperate people always jump the gun. Izkan's concern is not what is right for the state, but how to score an important point against a religion which she perceives as a rival to Islam. Give a religious person a foot, he/she will soon ask for an acre. If a non-muslem had suggested this in her native country, a fatuah would have been pronounced on him by now. By the time she succeded in this first assignment, I wonder what next she will ask for. Perhaps, that Sunday should no longer be a rest day in Germany, just like Friday.

I wish her the best in her crusade.
17:53 April 24, 2010 by whatzup
Now it becomes interesting. This is part of the muslim holy war on christianity in europe on a daring new front at the heart of the continent. What could be more effective in the fight than to have the government itself enlisted on your side? I'm not optimistic about the future - empty churches, scandals, waves of muslim immigration and now even legislative broadsides like this one. Blink your eyes twice and we'll be voting on whether to accept Sharia law in Germany. Think it won't happen? Think again. The european constitution as it stands now will become a distant memory.
19:04 April 24, 2010 by Jasmine33
Say what you will, but sounds to me as though this woman is proposing the same type thing that is going on in the US, and that is separation of church and state. What about the students at schools in Germany that practice Christianity, will they be punished if they are caught carrying a crucifix on their person because they will no longer be able to see it publically displayed? Will the school allow muslim artifacts to be displayed instead? At one of the schools I went to before separation of church and state went into effect we had a morning prayer each school day, and even though there was still some of the usual troubles that just come with school kids we had none of the stuff that goes on now such as shootings, stabbings, heavy drug use, disrespect, stealing, etc.. It will be a sad day for Christian kids to have to be made to feel that there's something wrong with the public display of a crucifix. What next, ban Sunday school and Church?
20:02 April 24, 2010 by freechoice
yes blame the Christians for society ills...

continue to flash the devil signs...

maybe the world will turn out better...

this is one crazy world indeed!!
20:04 April 24, 2010 by wmm208
See what happens when your country becomes Athiest? Besides, Germany is set to become an Islamic State in 10 years or so anyway. Start putting the half moon & star in Berlin and on the flag. Way to go Aygül ízkan. You go girl...
20:24 April 24, 2010 by cocovelvet
..... surely this lady must have anxiously waited for this moment to assume her duties to advance her nearly impossible demands. I wonder with the way she starts spining things right from the onset is not a very favourable way.

I concur with those who say as long as religion is taught here in schools, the demand or proposition looks ridiculous.........
21:31 April 24, 2010 by wmm208
coco, I bet Berlin realizes they have a problem with their fertility rates and immigration. They must devide a "solution" that makes Germany more attractive for foreigners and make the white race of Germany happy at the same time. She looks real young and really inexperienced however, I bet old men gave her tons of money and pull her strings everyday by saying "make the Turks obey" and simultaneously, make Germany more "integrated" to offset teh future decline. And she said, "well, I am a Turk and I can turn on them if you advance my career and pay me money". So, I am sure she gets a Mercedes as part of the deal (very common perk in Berlin) and free parking and she gets to be the face of the old men. This will not work...
22:45 April 24, 2010 by snorge
Here we go again, the Muslification of Germany is about to begin. You sleeping Germans better wake up or you will find yourselves back in the same situation you did in the 30's with the Nazi Party...
23:09 April 24, 2010 by wmm208
No, back then, the Nazi party represented 1000 years for Germans. In today's Germany you get 1000 Virgins via Islam. Its too late, the alarm clock rang many years ago. Mathamatically & statistically, its irreversible. Sharia law is next..
23:13 April 24, 2010 by OkieinBerlin
Snorge, what are you reading? -- the woman calls for a degree of religious neutrality in German schools, and you equate this not only with the "Muslimification" (check your spelling!) of Germany, but you also tie this a new, future Nazism here. How do you come up with this stuff?
23:20 April 24, 2010 by wmm208
Because their is a secular belief within the German Government to remove Christ in the schools from a (female) Muslim Government leader acting as a puppet on behalf of old German men in polictics. Sharia law has to be coming sometime soon...Its the only way to get the foreigners to stay and obey. Similar to the Nazi beliefes, you are seeing and hearing Muslim songs of Allah in all of the German cities from the rooftops and there is nothing German whote, Christians can do about it. Germany leads the world in religious conversions to Islam. Its too late. The statistics are "irreversible". The Muslim State is taking shape. Forget the Eagle and insert the star & moon.
23:40 April 24, 2010 by Logic Guy
Well, as an American citizen, I can honestly say that our country is drifting more and more away from the beliefs established by our founding fathers. And as a result, we are exposing ourselves to the worst of humanity and wrath of God.

Very bad things happens when a person, or nation walks away from the protection of God. I hope the German people will think long and hard about this too.
23:48 April 24, 2010 by wmm208
In God we Trust - US Dollar

Logic Guy: What are you talking about? The USD also has NWO references.

I think that the reason G-d, no matter what G-d or religion you believe in, the US holds values and morals to practice your choise or religious freedom of expression.

Germany is one of the leading athiest countries in teh world, so not sure where they are going with that. Its understandable, that their was and currently has so much pagan and cult references in German society...
00:46 April 25, 2010 by Freedom_Beats_Socialism
Christianity is the wellspring of freedom -- it and it alone believes in the free will to choose to believe. That is what built the greatness of the West.

Atheism is intolerant of Christian free will.

Socialism is intolerant of Christian free will.

Islam is especially intolerant of Christian free will and all infidel belief systems.

Unless Germany renews its spirit, it really is headed for moozlim dark ages.
00:51 April 25, 2010 by Iftikhar_Ahmad
There is no end to Forced marriages and honour killings as long as Muslim girls keep on attending state schools with notoriously monolingul non-Muslim teachers.Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better discipline and teaching Islamic values. Bilingual Muslim teachers are role models who understand the needs and demands of their children.

Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teahers as role models during their development period. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

No body has the right to tell a woman how to dress, or worse, how to undress? Let her wear what she likes, especially if it's part of her religion. I see the banning of headscarves or niqabs as an attack on both religious freedom and on the rights of women & girls.

Each and every Muslim child should be in a state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role model during their developmental periods. Bilingual Muslim children need to learn and be well versed in standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry.

There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my iopinion, all such schools may be designated as Muslim community schools.

Iftikhar Ahmad

London School of Islamics Trust http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
01:34 April 25, 2010 by wenddiver
The system our country's founding Father's established in America Was "Freedom of Religion", it was never "Freedom from Religion". Freedom from Religion is a recent change with no no legitimate history in the US prior to the 1950s.

It is a product of Marxist/Atheisist inject into our culture, designed to destroy the parent culture, and make the US vulnerable to Marxist/Aheist manipulation and eventual assimulation, once it is weak enough.

This Woman is trying to destroy the native German culture, so she can substitute something, the question is souless Atheism or Medeval Islam, eventually when it all falls apart.

Go to Church and pray for Germany, it will need it, soon enough.
02:10 April 25, 2010 by Beynch
The muslim ministress is wrong! This part of the world is historically, and culturally, Christian, with everything that goes with it. Hence the Crucifix stays! Headscarves are out! And if this is your way of introducing muslim extremism trought the back door, forget it honey! You're on the wrong track. Get over it and adapt. Thanx.
02:52 April 25, 2010 by wmm208
Sharia law in Germany = 5 years or less..
04:50 April 25, 2010 by wetdawg~
Mulification...a just due for the next Muhamadreich...Der Chef is rolling in his grave...had you all left Slobo to do his dirty work...EU would not be suffering so...surely this is the final solution for the German Volk!
04:51 April 25, 2010 by Jasmine33
A while back, I believe on ABC News, there was an article concerning UFO's and people wrote in comments about them and/or their experiences with them. One poster expressed a desire to be taken away by one, then said "on second thought take Obama instead". Do you think perhaps that after the UFO picks up Obama it should then come and pick up this muslim woman to take them both away? One big wwwhhhhoooosssshhh, and then, well - you know - no more Obama or muslim minister.
05:55 April 25, 2010 by wmm208
Besides the comparison between inexperience and Muslim religion for the two, Obama is a President and a decision maker. This girl is a puppet for the decision makers. Besides that, UFO's dont exist silly....
09:27 April 25, 2010 by snorge
@OkieinBerlin

Read the posts below mine to see what I mean...
09:45 April 25, 2010 by Der Grenadier aus Aachen
Yeah that woman is nuts. That is never happening.

On a different note, when did this site pick up all these whacked-out American neo-con types? It seems like every third comment to anything is some underwhelming effort to compare Germany's political climate to the hyper-polarized bucket of insanity that has reigned in America for the past ten years. Not that I really mind. It makes for great comedy.
10:05 April 25, 2010 by Talonx
Does anybody else feel uncomfortable posting articles rom the local with all the crazy confused people that come out of the woodwork on its message boards?
11:31 April 25, 2010 by zubuque
Do you think that Turkey is ruled by Sharia law and the kids at school are forced to attend Religion (Islam) classes? If so, you really should live in Turkey and may be go to school to see personally that living as a Muslim even in your personal life is difficult.

The attention should be paid to the second paragraph; she is against to the headscarf at school, too. What is the difference between wearing headscarf and carrying a crucifix?
11:43 April 25, 2010 by lohithreddy
must watch.......... Is.. is a disgrace to humanity

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#
12:28 April 25, 2010 by BR549
It's sad to see what passionate or finatical religious beliefs and political ideology do to people and civilization. It prevents homosapiens from acting as human beings.

This article was also titled to mislead. It was written for the sole purpose to rouse arguments and increase revenue or profit margins.

After reading the complete article, I formed the opinion that Ms. ízkan is taking a sensible (but futile) approach to an never ending, senseless situation.
12:45 April 25, 2010 by michael4096
@peschvogel - re sharia in 1.3 years, or whatever

If this girl represents the future of a larger non-christian minority in germany, and the christian comments on this post represent the alternative, I think I prefer her way.
14:02 April 25, 2010 by Zobirdie
I wonder how she would feel about a Christian minister in Turkey demanding that the schools ban headscarves?

This is a traditionally Christian area. I think if they want to have crucifixes on the walls, fine. It is up to foreigners to conform to German beliefs, not Germans to conform to every tom, dick and mohammed who shows up.
14:07 April 25, 2010 by cocovelvet
@Ahmad...

I believe you are way off track with your comments. Are you forgetting in which situation, country and mainly continent the emphasis is centred on ??!!!! Unbelievable....

Probably you could win the hearts and minds of many with your comments somewhere in an islamist country........
15:38 April 25, 2010 by hanskarl
"Give a "religious person" a foot, he/she will soon ask for an acre. If a non-Muslim had suggested this in her native country, a Fatah would have been pronounced on him by now."

When you create a vacuum something must fill it. Could it be that rampant abortion which has led to the population decline be what has led to rampant immigration to fill the necessary jobs. Could it be that rampant Godlessness has led to a rampant filling of the spiritual void by promotion of those who accept other gods? Will it be that the God of the ages passes judgment soon or is he already passing judgment with the natural consequences of our choices?
16:05 April 25, 2010 by zubuque
@Zobirdie

There is no need for a Christian minister to ban headscarves in schools in Turkey, they are already banned, even in universities.
17:07 April 25, 2010 by Linda Rivera
In many majority Muslim countries, non-Muslims - Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and others, suffer horrendous, severe persecution. Every day is lived in fear. The Islamization of Europe and the UK is rapidly taking place. Special rights are given to Muslims that are not given to non-Muslims. Because of massive Muslim immigration and huge Muslim families, in a few years, Muslims will be in the majority and Europe and the UK will be Islamic countries. Under Islamic sharia law, females are treated as inferior and non-Muslims have no human rights. The horrifying persecution that non-Muslims endure in many majority Muslim countries will be experienced by the indigenous people of Europe and the UK. There will be no one to help.
17:28 April 25, 2010 by Kennneth Ingle
We may not have very many Christians living in Europe now, but our whole society is based on Christian values. These values are a ground stone for modern civilisation. do we really want to return to the middle ages? looking at the Middle East, where Islam is the greatest power, one can only have the fear of returning to the past, if they tell us how to behave. Freedom of thought, word and deed would no longer exist and equal rights for women a dream. The cross should stay, but as a symbol of freedom, not one of oppression.
17:40 April 25, 2010 by tlwinslow
What is different about Islam compared with other religions? Its very name is a combo of the words for peace and submission, as in when the world submits to Islam then there will be peace. Too bad, the flip side is that until then there will be eternal war as Muslims assert superiority over all other religions and ideologies and seek to impose Islam's horrible Sharia system which controls all aspects of life via a theocratic govt. Hence, this minister's call for the taking down of crucifixes and attempt to make it into a quid pro quo for headscarves is dishonest, since if they had the numbers to back their demands up by force, the govt. would declare Sharia and openly make all non-Muslims inferior to Muslims in all ways. So why did the govt. permit mass Muslim immigration in the first place? They thought it would be healthy to have a new perspective as long as they assimilated? Guess what, they never will, they will just keep demanding superiority ceaselessly. Study Islam's history free online with the Historyscoper and see the 1400-year track record in country after country.
17:42 April 25, 2010 by Linda Rivera
EGYPT KIDNAPS CHRISTIANS

The world is shamefully silent over the Egyptian government and Saudi Arabia involvement in the kidnapping of Christian Egyptian girls in Egypt. Kidnapped Christian female children are violently converted to Islam and forcibly married/raped to adult Muslim males.

Does the uncaring, mainstream media not report this because telling the truth about Islam would make Islam look bad? Protecting Islam is considered more important by Western mainstream media and government leaders than protecting the lives of desperate, defenseless innocent children!

ASSYRIAN INTERNATIONAL NEWS AGENCY

8-11-2009

Abduction and Forced Islamization of Christian Coptic Girls Continues in Egypt

(AINA) - The systematic abduction and forced Islamization of Coptic minor girls in Egypt is a frequent, dangerous and a rapidly escalating phenomenon. Coptic Pope Shenouda III, December 17th, 197: ¦quot;there is pressure being practiced to convert Coptic girls to embrace Islam and marry them under terror to Muslim husbands¦quot; and demanded that the abducted girls be brought back to their families.

Abductions are done in cooperation between Saudi-funded associations and the Egyptian State Security.

…in the majority of cases, the State Security is the one who masterminds the kidnapping plans.¦quot;

http://www.aina.org/news/20090811125748.htm

The U.S. gifts Egypt with 2.2 billion dollars every year.

¦#39;He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.¦#39; Bible, Exodus 21:16

Saudi authorities shred all Bibles found on anyone at the airport in Saudi Arabia. Bibles that contain the unchangeable laws of G-D.
18:54 April 25, 2010 by wmm208
You must obey allah. This will happen here soon.
20:24 April 25, 2010 by Talonx
HAHAHAHA

You fundies are unreal.

Anyways, score one for a secular society!
23:03 April 25, 2010 by wmm208
Fundamentalism has crept in....
00:12 April 26, 2010 by jlmcnamara
First of all, I have a lot of (pretty secular but somewhat dogmatic) Muslim friends.

That said, a Muslim wants to ban a Christian symbol that has been a tradition in German schools? Whether or not she is right or wrong she is very stupid for advocating that.

Her statement is about as smart as Angela Merkel going to a Mosque and saying that the best doeners in the world are the pork doeners her dad uses to make after church. Leave it to a Christian colleague to fight that battle. It's called credibility.
01:05 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Islam is more important in Germany than any other religion so more pro Islam laws & rights should happen.
01:17 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ wenddiver:

You've got it backwards. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified specifically to protect people FROM religion, not to protect religion from the government. The founders knew all too well how religion had been used to persecute people under the authority of secular law, which is why they fled that system. In fact, the entire concept of the U.S. Bill of Rights was to protect the minority from the oppression of the majority. You should read up on Thomas Jefferson.
01:23 April 26, 2010 by rebel4us
Watch what you ask for ...you will end up like the USA..where they cater to foreign, and other special interest groups , meanwhile their very own natural born citizens..Have no rights anymore... We cant even put up the NATIVITY SCENE anymore without OUTRAGE .. We have taken GOD out of many things, and our Country is going through Hell because of it.. Just watch what rules you want ...and what you remove... It could end up coming back and biting you in the behinds....It's amazing how ISLAM is going to every single Continent on the MAP and INFRINGING THEIR Rights to be ABOVE any others.. It's wrong..and They have to either blend in or go back to where they originated from..They ARE not Going to change this WORLD UNLESS we let them! Don't let them...
01:27 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ rebel4us:

Don't you have a tea party to go to?
01:35 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
rebel4us:

You sounda angry. Almost kind of disturbed. Europe is a problem. Islam is the answer. Its too late. Either leave your rotting country or convert. You are an infidel.
02:06 April 26, 2010 by sc123
@wmm208:

why don't you go back to Afghanistan or Iraq, hang out with your Al Quida friends and get your head blown off, courtesy of the USA
02:21 April 26, 2010 by whatzup
Boyz, boyz, no fighting please. We all know that the muslim political agenda is exactly the same as the muslim religious agenda. We'll all be "converting" soon enough when those folks have their way. As the old confucian saying goes "when rape is inevitable relax and enjoy it". Get used to bowing towards the east, it will be good for your health.
02:33 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Al Quida - Ha is that a guy who is from Italy? Quida, too funny. Nah, if i wanted terrorism, i would go to Germany. Schade...
03:02 April 26, 2010 by rebel4us
Prufrock2010 Nothing to do with tea parties, has to do with freedoms..

and

wmm208... Nope not angry either... Just seeing rights of everyone put aside for special interests... Suddenly Muhummad is a bad word..and a cartoon is being censored ..THAT's B.S. and U know it.. I could give a ratz a$$ about Muhummad ... and wouldnt care if it was a SLUG being portrayed as muhummad... Rights are being dissolved due to THREATS from Muslim Extremists... it's not acceptable..they are still VIOLENT no matter who complies...You dont threaten violence and death... You are usually big enough to ignore it.. Too bad one of the prerequisites arent being educated before joining islam...
04:41 April 26, 2010 by blauaugen63
"Christian symbols do not belong in state schools. School should be a neutral place,¦quot; said Aygül ízkan, who is a member of the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and will be made Lower Saxony's social minister next week."

What party does she think she belongs to???

Not the Muslim Democratic Party. She needs to go live in Turkey and take the rest of the Turks back with her. Germany is fine without all the muslims.
06:02 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Germany is not fine without the Muslims. Nobody would pay you or your parents pensions.
07:50 April 26, 2010 by sainteyad
STOP AGREEING WITH HER ... she want to convert the country to islam ... we should stand united christian and non christian agains this islamist attack and thier best wepon they use is our diversity ... stop denying you christian roots at least as a culture ! otherwise these people will take over and every one of you had to pray lefting his A** in the air 5 times a day and you girls has to put the borqou or u will get stonned .... they are pretending modesty but they are faniatic religion .. PLEASE WAKEEEE UP DONT fight .. your enemy is ONE AND COMING FROM WITH IN NOW ..its called ISLAM
11:24 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Since when is a call for separation of church and state tantamount to a stealth Muslim takeover of society?

Why should any non-christian, Jew or atheist be subjected to christian religious symbols in public schools? Or any religious symbols, for that matter? The very notion is insulting to millions of people who don't want someone else's religion shoved down their throat. I don't pay taxes to promote religion in public schools.
12:35 April 26, 2010 by michael4096
@Prufrock2010
Since when is a call for separation of church and state tantamount to a stealth Muslim takeover of society?
1. When your own agenda in furthered more by fear than reason

2. When, despite 5000 years of counter example, you still believe that the past is better than whatever the future holds

3. When you are paranoid and assume everybody else has you hang-ups

4. When you consider 'dialog' to mean you rant and all others listen
12:59 April 26, 2010 by Miss Daisy
The state schools should be a religious neutral place where all children feel free to learn.
17:03 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
@ amadik:

I capitalized Jew because Judaism is a specific religion. I did not capitalize christian because it is not a specific religion, but a generic term for those who follow any number of specific religions that profess to follow the teachings of Christ.

Getting a bit pedantic, are we?
18:27 April 26, 2010 by michael4096
With the exception of some cranks ..
Well as one 'crank', I think you are wrong. This thread gives numerous examples of why it is very important that we stop feeding bigotry, closed-mindedness and general ignorance to our kids. Until we do so, we will continue to have these 'suspicions' you seem to think we should pander to.

I'd be happier to have a little more "unbelievable stupidity" like hers and less really stupid ideas such as 'us' & 'them', 'good' & 'evil' and that any religion is superior to another or to no religion at all.
18:58 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I'm one who believes that ALL religions are based on silly superstitions that are ludicrous at best and potentially lethal to the world's population at worst. Some derive comfort from their belief in fairy tales, and so be it. Others use religion as a weapon to subjugate, oppress, loot and kill -- as we are now witnessing with the resurgence of militant, violent, intolerant ideologies and the human rights horrors committed by "theocratic" governments around the world. If there is a god, I suspect that he/she/it is mighty pissed off by the atrocities committed in his/her/its name.

Whether one believes in religion or not, it has no place in a public school curriculum, anywhere on this planet. If I wanted to live in a theocracy I'd move to Iran or America.
19:01 April 26, 2010 by coyote3000
The comments for this one provide some pretty strange reading! I was actually surprised there were still crosses and what-not nailed to the walls of public schools here. I went to school in Canada and I think they got rid of them years ago. I don't ever remember seeing one in an elementary or high school. And generally speaking Canada remains a relatively wealthy, stable, sparkly clean, safe and orderly society. If it hasn't fallen apart yet, I doubt that removing the odd cross or two is going to turn Germany into a cesspool of satanic terrorism....
19:07 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Prufrock2010 - And thats why you are merely "part" of the bigger problem in Germany - Athiesm...Europe has a problem and Islam is the answer..
19:54 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Spell it with a capital c or lower case c, however you like. I won't dignify the term by capitalizing it.
20:23 April 26, 2010 by Talonx
@ wmm208

To paraphrase what many others have said before, 'good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do a bad thing, that takes religion'.

We see this with regards the christians up in Ireland, fighting over nonsensical arguments that have been around since the 1500s. We see this with regards jews for the marginalization of non-jews in Israel. We see this with muslims that can't handle the portrayal of Moham ... He's got pork in his name, look at that.

Islam, is just as bad as the rest, surely not everyone is violent in any religion, but all religions are inherently unrational, this often leads to the irrational, which leads to stupidity and violence. Anything that leaves room for the unrational is insufficient as a system of belief meant to provide for moral or ethical foundations.
20:28 April 26, 2010 by michael4096
Here, people actually PAY taxes that go directly to the coffers of the Vatican.
Here, people can opt to pay a church 'tax' directly from their pre-tax salary and thus avoid paying income tax on it and having to claim it back a year later. There is no compulsion from the state to use this facility.
20:41 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
It's still a tax (at best a state-sponsored "charitable contribution") that goes directly to the church. True, there is an opt-out provision, but such an arrangement should never exist in the first place, as it marries, rather than separates, church and state. And, by the way, what gives the government the right even to ask me what my religion is -- assuming I have one?
20:46 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Prufrock2010 - Because its on your Passport, Your birth certificate and your German citizen card. If you dont have this section completed, you will be getting a call. And yes, you will be taxed too for being an atheist.
20:48 April 26, 2010 by Prufrock2010
I have an American passport, peschvogel. Just like yours. Enough of the bullshit.
21:01 April 26, 2010 by wmm208
Sounds like you should turn it in....Your not an Amerikaner...I bet you get taxed more because you live overseas....Schade...
21:06 April 26, 2010 by Sapodilly
I find it interesting that the headline here as well as the headline in the MoPo and some other papers I have seen are saying "Muslim minister-designate," as if it matters at all that she is Muslim. That says something about The Local, and MoPo, and any other media outlet who puts that in their headline as if her being Muslim necessarily has something to do with her opinion on crucifixes.
05:55 April 27, 2010 by rebel4us
Man Ive seen some bitter people on some message boards..BUT

PRUFROCK, who pee'd in your CHEERIOS this morning????

perhaps you should try some Prune juice...

Im a CHRISTIAN, And i know that here in the USA groups have been trying to take GOD out of everything..off the currency, removed from the pledge , removing nativitiy scenes from STORES and Court houses.. AND low and behold, Here comes ISLAM... Taking over...They are offended by our symbols..but yet want their symbols EVERYWHERE..

Remove God, and things eventually go all to "H#LL....
08:11 April 27, 2010 by cmorfair
Just one Muslim voice today. Just wait and see how everything Christian will be slowly attacked and mocked. No more Christmas Markets, no more Crucifixes in school. Everything that makes Germany unique will slowly be taken away by those who refuse to accept the culture here.

Don't believe me? Just look at the USA where Christians are constantly mocked. Christian symbols are routinely banned and removed, while other religious symbols are allowed.
08:29 April 27, 2010 by Talonx
@ rebel4us

How do you expect people to respond with your and your peers' claims to special moral privledge. You are the pee in our cheerios, we wake up in the morning and because it's simply to early to read in German we go to our native langaunge news for Germany only to find idiotic posters left and right speaking ou their #sses like it's a foxnews board or something. On that note, I would rather wallow in any hell then spend an enternity with the likes of you in any heaven. Your smug, 'my morality is the best' bullsh#t' is ignorant, offensive, and reactionary.
11:03 April 27, 2010 by michael4096
Where will it end? Banning the Weihnachtsmarkts?
I haven't heard anybody mention anything about adults. Its ramming things down the throats of kids that is the issue.
16:20 April 27, 2010 by Prufrock2010
"Yup, torture and murder of political dissidents happened during the history of Christianity, but it also help us to learn more about the real values and let us continuously cherish, evolve even perfect Christianity right now."

Every day the newspapers are chock full of articles about how christianity has been "perfected." Ratzinger is the poster boy for christian perfection.

So now we have a global conflict between christianity that is mired in the 15th century (i.e., the Catholic Church) and Islam, that demands that its adherents live in the 12th century. This is progress. This is evolution. This is perfection.

A pox on all their houses. Religion is the greatest evil ever devised by mankind.
17:46 April 27, 2010 by rebel4us
TO TALONX,

WOW talk about a BITER PERSON...Im not attacking anyone on their views of Christianity ...Im simply stating... Removing GOD from every aspect of life, is not a great idea. SOMEONE created US, you can decide on your own who that was. MY concern is that a crucifix is a symbol...that has been part of the Cultures for a very long time. Take it or leave it..I cant imagine that something simply hanging on a wall out of the way,,is OFFENSIVE... Since when has the human population become so weak that cant just IGNORE it..but instead need to sue and bring legal action because their EYES ARE OFFENDED???

IF you want to WALLOW in H#LL Wallow away..Im not stopping you....
17:53 April 27, 2010 by rebel4us
As far as the Religion of ISLAM, the way THE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS are representing it..DOESNT sound like a FORGIVING, nor an understanding respectful religion to me.. They are intolerant of anyone who doesnt agree with them..to the point of Death threats... I havent heard too many CHRISTIANS going out and threatening people with violence of death threats, all because they dont believe in GOD.... big difference... In fact i seem to remember an entirely different scenerio, one of which those who did believe in GOD were stoned to death...
20:46 April 27, 2010 by Prufrock2010
America is a de facto crypto-christian theocracy, notwithstanding the separation of church and state guaranteed by the First Amendment. One cannot be elected to high office in America without undergoing and passing a religious litmus test. The American evangelical right wing is the christian taliban. I reveal all this as an American. Separation of church and state in the U.S. is a fiction, a quaint artifact of its constitutional heritage. It is honored more in the breach than in the observance.
22:57 April 27, 2010 by wmm208
This woman's statement of the above article, has single handily ruined the CDU party and ruined Merkel's reputation...Schade...
00:41 April 28, 2010 by Prufrock2010
Has anyone noticed that peschvogel (aka wmm208) is God? He is the alpha and the omega. He is almost always the first to comment and always has to have the last word.

On the other hand, he is always wrong.
02:35 April 28, 2010 by wmm208
Fine, don't listen to me. Listen to a "reputable" news source:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/

CDU Turkish Minister Appointment 'Flops'

A Muslim woman's appointment as the first state minister with Turkish roots was meant to be a coup for Germany's conservative Christian Democrats. But Aygül ízkan ignited a firestorm by stating that crucifixes should be banned from classrooms. German commentators say the incident has damaged Chancellor Angela Merkel's party.
19:13 April 30, 2010 by Lochinvar
I studied the documents that invented the USA prior to applying for citizenship and became an ex-European.

I deduce that Logic Guy and rebel4us have not done so with any understanding.

I have also read that none of the first five Presidents of the USA was in fact anything more than a Deist.

The great revolutionary pamphleteer Thomas Paine specifically DEFENDED the idea of the existence of God in "Age of Reason".

But he utterly REJECTED Islam, Judaism, the church of Rome, and all the rest of Christianity.
16:23 May 1, 2010 by fair1day
She is a clueless.

She needs to talk to Waffa Sultan.
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Angela Merkel. Photo: DPA

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